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 Post subject: tramming sieg x3
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:59 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 11:04 am
Posts: 51
Location: bristol
Hi

I've been trying to tram my Sieg X3, the X-axis is off by about .02mm over a radius of about 35mm. I've tried loosening the four bolts holding the head to the column but there doesn't seem to be any movement to make the adjustment (there is flex but it always come back to .02mm out). Can anyone offer some advice, am I focusing my work at the right junction on the machine or would there be an easy place to make the adjustment? When I make a cut it's showing up as a small ridge I can easily pick at with my nail.

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:54 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 11:04 am
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Location: bristol
What would be the likelihood of successfully tapering the jib by hand on a whetstone? I was thinking that if I start with the end I want to be thick at the beginning of the stone it should take a progressive amount off. It seems like this would solve my problem, but I'm not sure if it will cause others or if I've overlooked something.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:12 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 11:04 am
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Location: bristol
ok, I just realised the jib is tapered anyway so forget my last post.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Posts: 11833
Location: Onalaska, WA USA
Can you post a picture of the machine? Not all of us are familiar with them. Could be there is something obvious to us that can be altered to your advantage to get the head properly oriented.

So you'll know, the word isn't "jib", it's "gib". The G is pronounced hard, as in the name Gibson.

Harold


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 11:04 am
Posts: 51
Location: bristol
Hi again

I took measurements over the length of the bed and it's 0.12mm off. There are two horizontal locating pins which sit half in the back plate and half in the head (you see their head when you look at the side of the mill), they seem to be what's stopping the head from turning but I'm wondering how necessary they are, has anyone ever removed them?

I know this must be a question that gets asked a lot, but I haven't been able to find anything specifically about the x3. The only other way I can see is by shimming the column which I'm reluctant to get into.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Location: bristol
Hi Harold

sorry, my last post was written without seeing your reply,

I'll find some photo of the mill for you.

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 11:04 am
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Location: bristol
Hi Harold

I hope this is useful

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/projects/prepguides/X3%20Mill%20Preparation%20Guide.pdf


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Location: bristol
Hi Harold

Just wanted to let you know that I found a forum for X3 owners, it seems that shimming the column is the general approach to tram this machine.

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:38 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Posts: 11833
Location: Onalaska, WA USA
Yes, the picture helped tremendously. Too bad it didn't show the base details, but it told me that the head is not equipped to swivel or nod.

I would agree with shimming the column, assuming the spindle is parallel with the column. If not, shimming the base will correct the condition you speak of, but when you move the head vertically, you lose position by the amount of error in the ways. Not trying to alarm you, just a heads-up to be mindful if you move the head once you've made a setup that you could lose orientation.

In truth, you have that situation now. When you extend the spindle, the relative position moves by the amount of the error in question. By altering the existing condition, you change how the error manifests itself. If the spindle is dead parallel with the ways, with shimming, the error will be eliminated.

Here's a little tip that will help you install the proper amount of shim. Swing your indicator in the same arc as the distance between bolts. That way you get a direct reading of the error, so a shim of the proper thickness is known by the indicator reading.

Good luck. Why don't you let us know how it turns out?

Harold


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:08 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 11:04 am
Posts: 51
Location: bristol
Hi Harold

thanks for the tip, is it ok to take readings directly off the bed? My parallels aren't straight along their side so I don't think they'll give me a good reading. So far, I've been lifting the shaft of the indicator very carefully and sitting a wood chip under it to hold it off the bed while I turn the spindle, I do let it go several times first to make sure I'm not introducing some inaccuracy and the readings are always consistent.

How would I check that the spindle is parallel?

Are there any do's and don'ts with regard to shimming?

I have to order some shim, so it may be a little while but I'll let you know how it goes.

Regards

Jon


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:02 pm
Posts: 11833
Location: Onalaska, WA USA
I always recommend the indicator be used on the table, never with anything between the two. While it is generally acceptable to use a precision object, if there are minor anomalies in the table surface, you risk false readings, defeating the purpose.

I also recommend you draw file the table surface before running an indicator. Properly applied, nothing is removed from the table, but any projections are removed. They can be the source of vises mounted wonky, so it's good shop practice to hit the table occasionally. Don't use a new file. They're too sharp and have the potential to remove parent metal from the table surface. One that has been used is generally very acceptable. Draw the file sideways (no file handle needed) with the palms of your hands. Not a lot of downward pressure--just enough for the file to glide along easily. When you hit a projection, you'll know by the slight resistance to movement. Go over that spot until you feel nothing. Again, do NOT press too hard, otherwise the file is inclined to cut where it shouldn't. The table of you mill should feel smooth when you run your hand across. It it does not, it needs to be addressed.

As far as application goes, if you're using a DTI, you should have the contact extended parallel with the body of the indicator to minimize error. If you have a long travel type indicator, that can be a better choice, although not necessary. Pick up the table by only a thou or two, not more. That way the indicator will glide on and off the edges without difficulty, even if it addresses the grooves from the side. If you can make a setup whereby the DTI can be mounted such that it trails rotation instead of being sideways, all the better. In that case, turn the spindle such that the indicator always trails. I recommend you not touch the indicator when taking your readings, even if you feel you are not making a difference. What you are looking for may be so small that a tiny amount of error can be added, again, defeating the purpose of the test.

Shimming. Before you do any shimming, it's a good idea to dismantle the machine so you can examine the base and mating surface to insure that there isn't something tilting the column. It may have been assembled with crud between the two surfaces, or some dings that prevent the column from seating properly. What I'd do is dismantle, draw file both surfaces to insure there are no protrusions, then reassemble and sweep the table with your indicator. At that time you can be assured that you are reading the true condition of the machine. You may find you must shim the entire column to achieve the amount of tilt required, due in part to, perhaps, not being able to buy the required shim sizes. You may have to use a half thou, which may or may not be at your disposal, but perhaps one that measures .0015" may be. Anyway, shimming is a last resort kind of approach, so make sure everything that can cause the problem has been eliminated first.

One thing to remember----any applied shims should be directly under the bolt(s), so you don't risk cracking the mounting surfaces. You are dealing with cast iron, which is not known for its tensile strength. If you must, make U shaped shims that can slide in from the exposed surface, so when the bolts are tightened the pressure is applied directly to the shim, not along side the shim.

As far as the spindle being parallel to the column, you may be able to run an indicator held in the spindle, running on the vertical column ways. Extend the spindle to check for variations. It's important that the indicator not be able to rotate, otherwise you get false readings.

Harold


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:35 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 545
Location: Canada, Bc
as harold and others are saying, the name of the game is shiming, not fileing down material (unless as harold the master says, theres some bump or ding or dirt getting in the way) Shiming is much faster to adjust and easyer to put back to normal :)


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